ahelmes71 - Posted - 01/31/2011:  04:33:00

---

I hear the terms bluegrass and "Old Time" thrown around a lot. Can somebody explain what is meant by Old Time if it encompasses something larger than just bluegrass?

Or are they just interchangeable terms? Or is OT a subset of bluegrass or bluegrass a subset of OT?

Bikewer - Posted - 01/31/2011:  07:26:53

---

Probably varies a lot... But I think of "old time" music as traditional string-band music in general. Pre-dates "bluegrass" by a fair bit.... It would incorporate a wide variety of folk tunes, dance music like jigs and reels, "murder ballads", that sort of thing.
Remember, bluegrass is a fairly recent invention.

tomm - Posted - 01/31/2011:  07:43:04

---

Probably depends on who your talking to. I think everyone's right in saying it pre-dates "bluegrass" and all bluegrass is certainly not "old time" music but what exactly is it. I've heard allot of stuff that is not similar referred to as "old time". I know the Ralph Stanley refers to old mountain music as "old time music". My personal favorite "old time" music.

Tom Smith - Posted - 01/31/2011:  09:54:06

---

Great question, Andrew. I'm hoping we can figure that out. I've linked your topic to the Old Time Music group. Thanks for posting. Tom

banjo_brad - Posted - 01/31/2011:  12:40:32

---

Quick "modern" definitions:

"Old Time(y) Music" - music for dancing or participating in; collaborative playing, no lead, breaks, solos for the players, everybody plays all the time. Tunes are often played for long periods of time (instances have been recorded of the same tune continuing throughout the night). Players tend to stay in the same key for long periods of time because the banjo and fiddle often use different tuning for each key. Normal instruments include fiddle (often in cross- or non-standard tunings), openback banjo played in clawhammer or old-time 2- or 3-finger styles (not Scruggs), usually without finger/thumb picks, guitar, mandolin, ukulele (yes, it is known to have been somewhat popular), mountain dulcimer, autoharp, hammered dulcimer, and in some areas, piano. Old Time music is often performed or played by soloists, not requiring anything more than one instrument.

"Bluegrass Music" - Performance music, played before a seated audience, usually with many songs. Players tend to take breaks (solos) in rotation where they can "show off their chops." Instruments often include guitar, fiddle, resonator banjo played in a driving, flashy, "Scruggs Style" of 3-finger picking (thumb and fingerpicks are almost always used), mandolin, bass, and dobro. Bluegrass music requires at least 3 instruments (banjo, guitar and fiddle. A mandolin is usually also required) due to the nature of the arrangements.

Old Time has been around since long before Bluegrass, which was defined by Bill Monroe in the 1940s.

And that is my $0.02 worth on the subject.

-B-

(EDIT: So you know where I'm coming from: BG music can be found almost everywhere, but for OT I would suggest listening to anything you can find by Tommy Jarrell, Wade Ward, Fred Cockerham or any of the "Round Peak" players. Some modern OT musicians would include Brad Leftwich, Bruce Molsky, and others.)

---

Edited by - banjo_brad on 01/31/2011 12:47:13

Kallesandria - Posted - 01/31/2011:  13:07:49

---

Don't forget the classic Old Time group, Gid Tanner and the Skillet Lickers, with blind Riley Puckett on guitar!

bfloyd6969 - Posted - 01/31/2011:  15:33:20

---

Great thread... great question. I'm just gonna sit back and read the replies as I love Old Time but can't really answer the question in topic.

jwing - Posted - 01/31/2011:  15:58:21

---

I have NEVER seen a bluegrass jam entice old people and young hippies to dance, but it happens a lot around OT music:

youtube.com/watch?v=bqPkBagKWVg
youtube.com/watch?v=2ivxgvdH9E...e=related
youtube.com/watch?v=gZFv8QcSUr...e=related
youtube.com/watch?v=3N7qQzgkoQ...e=related

Tom Smith - Posted - 02/01/2011:  02:05:23

---

And don't forget the most popular contemporary practitioners, Norman and Nancy Blake.
Wikipedia says " Most of the music that Norman Blake plays could be described as neo-traditionalist Americana folk and roots music (folk, bluegrass, country, blues), and many of the songs he plays are traditional, but he plays this acoustic type of music with a style, speed, and quality that has evolved and progressed in the modern age. Though probably best known for his fluid renditions of classic fiddle tunes transcribed for the guitar (Fiddler's Dram / Whiskey Before Breakfast), Blake has also written songs that have become bluegrass standards, such as "Ginseng Sullivan" from Back Home in Sulphur Springs, "Slow Train through Georgia", and "Church Street Blues"."

"Neo-traditionalist Americana folk and roots music" Wow. We need more catagories!

Makes me wonder. On the Blake & Rice CD's, with two guitars playing fiddle tunes, is that old time music?

jwing - Posted - 02/01/2011:  07:19:12

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tom Smith

"Neo-traditionalist Americana folk and roots music" Wow. We need more catagories!

---

That's my favorite genre! I also love "Newgrass," or "Modern Acoustic String Music."

Back to the OP, Bluegrass is not a subset of OT, nor is OT a subset of BG. BG does use some of the instrumentation of OT and many OT tunes have been grassed up. BG is more like offspring who's grandparents are OT, country, depression-era folk, and Appalachian white church music. I'd also classify BG as more masculine, based on the individual breaks (generally forsaken by OT), and evidenced by the number of women playing OT, whereas most BG jams are all men.

INFP47 - Posted - 02/02/2011:  10:37:11

---

If I had to rely on an official definition of old-time music I guess I would go to "What is Old-Time Music" on the official Mike Seeger site: mikeseeger.info/music.html

Banjo Brad's description is pretty much the same way I would describe OT. I guess I tend to think of Bluegrass as having been invented to be commercial entertainment based on old-time music. I happen to enjoy both.

Tim

GuitarJAF - Posted - 04/06/2011:  13:58:48

---

Here is a link to some very useful "Old Time Music" backing tracks:

oldtimejam.com/Jam.html

It includes many of the classic Old Time tunes.

Cheers! JAF

Fret Buzz - Posted - 02/01/2012:  04:15:21

---

Old time rocks!

For me, that whole pre-bluegrass thing (and bluegrass is indeed great) is similar to my love for pre-blues vs. blues and trad jazz/swing vs. modern jazz (bebop).

Categories? Yeah they "exist" sort of...but they all fade away listening to Norman and Nancy Blake...

fpeay - Posted - 02/01/2012:  06:45:38

---

" with two guitars playing fiddle tunes, is that old time music?"

That's a really good question that I've always wondered about.  Fiddle tunes are about all I play any more, and I'm never sure how to describe them.  Lots of times I'll be sitting with my guitar and tell folks I play fiddle tunes, only to be me with the response "you play fiddle too?"

I suppose playing fiddle tunes on guitar is a mixture of bluegrass and old time.  Maybe it's time it had its own genre.

brianbanjos - Posted - 02/03/2012:  11:28:40

---

Mike Seeger's definition is as good as any I've read. My late father was an old time banjo player and fiddler. I grew up listening too old time music and I enjoy a lot of it though I don't play that style generally. I play both banjo and guitar and play more in a bluegrass style though the band I'm in would generally be described as "Americana". As compared to how my dad played banjo, beyond the contrast in technique (frailing vs. Scruggs) the approach to the music is different. Where my dad would have played melody, I'm playing licks and trying to blow smoke over the chord changes. I'll play a break that references the melody in some instances but typically it takes off from there more like a rock guitar solo.

To me Bluegrass is more rock and roll and often as much about the player as the song whereas old time is more about the song. In old where there is a break in a non "fiddle tune" generally the fiddle takes the lead and plays melody. When you dig deep into old time string band records you'll find exceptions. I was listening to some early old time recording earlier today where a harmonica played the break but as with the fiddle, it adhered to the melody.

What's cool is in this forum and on this thread, we have a bunch of folks who appreciate both BG and OT. That isn't always the case and you can get into some really good Ford Vs. Chevy discussions. To me it's all good music.

DaddyJ - Posted - 02/03/2012:  11:43:59

---

It's really all about timing and feel.  In most cases, I can immediately distinguish between Old Time and Bluegrass just by hearing it.  Each has its own pulse.  That's not to say lines don't get blurred, on purpose or otherwise, but truly authentic Old Time music has a very distinct sound that's very different from Bluegrass.  It has a different bounce to it.  I love a good OT song, you just kind of get lost in the groove.  When listening to BG I find myself really concentrating on the music, not wanting to miss anything.  OT just carries you along.

Just did a quick search and found a great example here.  Just some folks jamming at Mount Airy.  Listen especially to the fiddle and the banjo.  That's Old Time.

bfloyd6969 - Posted - 02/03/2012:  13:40:03

---

Real good stuff here - have a listen to the samples:

folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.a...emid=2968

folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.a...emid=3166

folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.a...emid=2954